Museum dilemma

91 Willow St or Cliff Rd

Does it matter where? Let’s just get a museum happening for Tauranga.

That seems to be the consensus amongst some of the city’s MPs and would-be MPs – including Simon Bridges, the man who’s long been championing a new museum for Tauranga. But New Zealand First questions whether the time is right for a museum, whether the city has more urgent priorities.

“Cliff Rd would be a more ambitious and exciting museum,” says Simon Bridges. ”So what’s wrong with ambition and excitement when planning a significant new facility for the city?

“Well, more controversy and cost – so my point is let’s just bleedin’ get one.” The MP, the Minister of the Crown, believes the Willow St site for a new museum would be more achievable, and achievable more quickly than Cliff Rd. But there’s a qualification “Not at any cost, but a good museum.”

The Weekend Sun went to the politicians after the Tauranga City Council consulted with ratepayers for three months and discovered ‘significant community support’ for a new museum. It seems ratepayers want a museum to ‘tell our story’ and learn about what has shaped the city.

Where the museum is located will depend on factors such as cultural significance, cost, time to build, suitability of land and impact on neighbourhoods.

But if it depended on Tauranga’s political hopefuls two months out from a general election it would probably be built in Willow St.

Jan Tinetti is excited and ambivalent at the same time. The Merivale Primary principal is number 14 on the Labour Party list and more or less guaranteed a free ride into parliament. She’s excited about the prospect of a museum and is looking forward to seeing the city’s heritage being recognised and celebrated.

“Cliff Rd is close to The Elms and connects with the city’s heritage. But Willow St is in the CBD and close to the art gallery.”

The MP for Bay of Plenty Todd Muller shares Simon Bridges’ want for something to happen.

“But when it comes to the debate between iconic and functional, I lean towards functional,” says Todd. “Because the true museum experience is what’s inside and the quality and frequency of the exhibitions.”

Ranking 38 on the Labour list is Angie Warren-Clark. She will contest Todd’s seat and prefers the Cliff Rd option. “The views across our beautiful inner harbour would be stunning,” says Angie. “It was a significant Maori community in the 1800s so I look forward to hearing whether iwi would support this site.”

Another factor for her are the railway lines. “They impact both sites. I look forward to a solution so we can enjoy our beautiful seafront without the trains.”

A museum for New Zealand’s fastest growing city with the fifth largest population is a fantastic idea and makes sense for New Zealand First list MP Clayton Mitchell. But it’s a case of when.

“An awesome and iconic building up near The Elms and looking out over the harbour would be brilliant.” The MP believes there are more pressing needs.

“We need to make sure our traffic and transport challenges are dealt with first. With limited money, I would prioritise public transport investment first and then look at a museum. Resource funding is limited and I would hate to see a burden put on council and ratepayers when we have so many urgent transport infrastructure challenges to deal with first.”

The TCC transformation committee will receive a report on August 1 that provides information to support the shortlisting of options and locations for new cultural facilities like a museum and library.

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@ Pappa and Robson

Posted on 15-08-2017 10:52 | By MISS ADVENTURE

The fact remains that the "quoted" informaition was wrong and Robson called it out correctly. A reference to it is meaningless in the context of what was said and attempted to be justified, plain and simple mate, the gross error was called out and found wanting. Being nice, that is "Game, Set, Match"! You may seek to explain, moan or whatever else but in end result its wrong THE END.

Maildrop thank you

Posted on 15-08-2017 09:28 | By waiknot

John Robson, I have tried but it impossible to have a meaningful discussion he sidesteppes, slides all over the place and then attacks. I too like the idea of a museum but not at any cost or location and with solid foundations so it can be viable and go the distance. In my view Councillor Larry Looks to have an agenda and will happily spend spend to achieve it. He also appears to believe he knows best and is dismissive of the rest. This concerns me and makes me suspect of any claims/projections presented.

R. Bell - Finally you say the words - LOAN & DEBT

Posted on 15-08-2017 01:15 | By Bobby2

See that wasn’t so hard. Now let’s get down to the bottom line. On top of your ratepayer subsidy of millions per year and on top of your millions of commercial income there is still be the matter of servicing a debt of at least 30 mil! Over 25 years that would be a minimum of 100 000 dollars every month (with no interest)! Who pays for this? And do not even for a second suggest a longer repayment term as we all know that Tauranga Council cannot manage or maintain their own buildings beyond a 25 year lifespan before they require demolition. It’s time to front up and admit that without massive ongoing long term debt the figures are a total loss and not workable. Mr Bell would you now like to debate the millions of dollars required for start up costs or are we done here?

@waiknot et al

Posted on 14-08-2017 16:59 | By maildrop

No, he’s not a retired schoolteacher. He is still part time at Bunnings. Don’t worry about the spelling, you kicked his arse anyway. In fact, numerous people have, repeatedly. He has a new strategy though!


Posted on 14-08-2017 16:50 | By Papamoaner

You’re nitpicking. "Detroitism" was a light hearted reference to Detroit becoming an industrial ghost town. Either acknowledge or discredit that poll or stand down. Don’t try to diminish its validity by pedantically disputing the exact date of the poll in an attempt to discredit. It was a telephone poll of 600, cited by Cr Gail McIntosh in 2015 (now a museum opponent) and reported by Sunlive at that time. Do your own research. Go to council minutes online and find it. If you are foolish enough to spend $2k on posturing, you have more money than sense. I don’t. But I have donated unpaid time over the years to the advancement of young people, and there’s no posturing value in that old chap. Trump is obnoxious, so that was deliberately insulting - Don’t be vindictive.

eminently affordable? TUI ADVERT!

Posted on 14-08-2017 16:35 | By MISS ADVENTURE

At a $1 a week per household in Tauranga assumes numbers are real and applcable to use here. The Art Gallery again provides us with a more realistic scenario and facts of what will happen as an end result. The visitor revenue is around $100,000pa towards the $900k-$1m costs to run it currently. Tapapa has a larger population to support it, Govenment subsidy (wont happen here), very low tourist numbers and most here dont pay to go to the Art Gallery (bus loads of unwilling school kids make up around 80% of the publisied numbers annually. Reality is: no money annually from Government, numbers way less, way more of those visiting it wont/cant pay and so the losses will be massive. Eveidence suggests $5-7million annually as the losses, that’s $115/household/pa rates increase and interest of some $2m plus/pa is $30-40/household/pa rates increase also, total $150/pa rates increase.

Short answer for bobby2,

Posted on 14-08-2017 16:35 | By R. Bell

I have never ever, not once claimed ’build it they will come" that’s never. As for my mathematical skills, bobby, where am I wrong? I simply take available numbers and apply them. I notice you don’t. Surely you know where the loan comes from, if not I suggest you bone up before attacking people. We do have debt, and will no doubt get more, partly, that’s partly, bobby, due to the fact (as you so brilliantly point out, ) we are a dull and boring city. Perhaps that is more reflective of the mentality of your average Tauranga citizen, just asking bob. Robin Bell.

Calling BS on Papamoaner II

Posted on 14-08-2017 14:55 | By john robson

Papamoaner - you claimed, falsely, that TCC conducted a poll in 2015. Your defence was there was a poll, but not in 2015. You forgot to give the year (2006), or the results re paying for a museum (not so positive). If you weren’t attempting to mislead, then I’m sure you’ll be happy to share all the results - so I look forward to your next post. You now claim to have invented the word ’Detroitism’. This is another false claim. As someone with a deeper-than-Google knowledge of both market research and Detroit, I’m starting to tire of your Trump-like claims, and I’m concerned they make getting a ’museum’ so much harder. On a positive note, I’m happy to contribute $2,000 to help fund a new poll - so I just need 24 others to do the same - are you in?

WOW R. Bell are you for real?

Posted on 14-08-2017 13:53 | By Bobby2

Your reasoning and mathematical skills are indicative of the mentality of many in Tauranga! Lets just build it, take a chance and shell be right Tauranga is filled with small town folk, including some councillors and MPs past and present that think they know it all, meanwhile they are hopelessly out of their depth and have no idea of the lasting implications of the magnitude of their mindset. These are the culprits partlyresponsible for our massive debt and dismal TOWN centre. NZ Adventure may be too polite to nail you down so I will ask again. QUESTION ---Dear Mr Bell, if by some miracle be lucky enough to get the 6 mil from ratepayers and the commercial portion, where does the 30 mil and more (millions as mentioned) come from to build and establish the museum? For all reading this thread---your short simple answer please.


Posted on 14-08-2017 12:22 | By Papamoaner

You’re honest! Well, my spelling is ok, but I was never any good at chess.


Posted on 14-08-2017 12:13 | By waiknot

My entire life I’ve been useless at it. And sometimes the spell check jumps in. Most of my posts have been in between work so not much in the way of proof reading. I don’t think it detracts from my argument. You picking up on it would be pedantic the word you use and does strengthen my belief you are a retired school teacher? Papamoaner I do admire your enthusiasm. Anyway Waiknot33 is signing out.


Posted on 14-08-2017 12:03 | By waiknot

My entire life I’ve been useless at it. And sometimes the spell check jumps in. Most of my posts have been in between work so not much in the way of proof reading. I don’t think it detracts from my argument. You picking up on it would be pedantic the word you use and does strengthen my belief you are a retired school teacher? Papamoaner I do admire your enthusiasm. Anyway Waiknot33 is signing out.


Posted on 14-08-2017 09:24 | By Papamoaner

Attacking you? You’re just as bad in that department. I try to be careful to only counterpunch, and I’m more open about it than you are. I don’t use sarcasm the way you do. I’m too direct for that kind of behaviour. On that note, if you’ll excuse my parting shot, I can spell too. Clobbering me with a put-down on business cases and business plans when you don’t know the difference between bored and board is up there alright, and you have prior for it.

It is always interesting to see people change their story.

Posted on 14-08-2017 09:15 | By R. Bell

N.zAdventurer, I make no assumptions whatsoever. If you follow this thread you will see that I suggested that the "millstone" effect is ill founded. In spite of your considerable experience in tourism, a museum is not just to attract tourism, in fact in and of itself it may not have "massive"effect. Which in effect nullifies your experiences. The museum is only part of the project, the purpose of which is to attract more visitors, If you are honest in your claims, you should know that multiple attractions are critical, and cover the whole Heart of the City project. With regard to your reference to "doubling"the requirements, sorry not good enough. Picking figures out of thin air, is more in line with missy’s tactics. Robin Bell.


Posted on 14-08-2017 08:28 | By Papamoaner

Sorry to hear you are leaving the debate, and best of luck. You were a good debater, but started getting a bit pedantic. As to me, I’m in for the long haul. Out of my depth? Really? I have more experience working with and for young people than you’ve had feeds, and it’s haunting how experience attests to bean counters almost invariably being the main inhibiting factor on just about everything we try. When we ignore them and just do it anyway, it always seems to work out fine, so why do we need them? I employ an accountant, and that’s all she’ll ever be - an accountant! Never the boss, I wouldn’t have a bar of it. Bean counters don’t actually produce anything - they just tally what real workers do. Anyway, I wish you well.

Oh P.S. to Papamoaner

Posted on 13-08-2017 21:56 | By waiknot

Feel free to continue attacking me, it only goes to reflect poorly on yourself.


Posted on 13-08-2017 21:53 | By waiknot

Yes I know the difference, a business case is not sufficient for a brand new venture, hence we need a plan. I had forgotten about the business case, possibly due to its insufficient nature. Doing a business plan after committing to a project defies logic and would only be viable if the need to salvage something from a train wreck occurred. Referring to me as beancounter (incorrect) I don’t consider a jab as someone needs to keep track of the realities of your flights of fantasy. Incidentally you are late to the party regards business plans and cases, did you just discover this. Not wishing to be rude Papamoaner, but I feel you are well out of your depth old chap in this discussion which in turn makes this so called debate a farce. And quite frankly I’ve become rather board attempting to have rational discussion.

For R. Bell - Reply (Part 2)

Posted on 13-08-2017 17:25 | By NZAdventurer

To begin, a Tauranga Museum would need to be more in the region of at least a fifth the size of Te Papa, which would double all the figures. But I brought up the 10% comparison so let’s stick with that. Robin, your workings/figures come up a little short: 1) You make the assumption that ratepayers will happily contribute $3Million annually 2) Then there is the commercial portion of another $3Million generated from entrance fees, sales, sponsorship, grants... That’s a huge ask considering the current foot traffic/tourist numbers visiting downtown Tauranga. Anyway let’s say we have both being $3Million from ratepayers and another $3Million from the commercial component = $6Million per year to run the Museum at just a 10% comparison. I have just one last question: Where does the $30Million building costs plus substantial additional millions in initial set up expenses come from? Have I missed something?


Posted on 13-08-2017 11:03 | By Papamoaner

You misunderstood. My reference to Bean Counters was not at you, It was a payback dig at Waiknot.

For R. Bell & Papamoaner - Reply (Part 1)

Posted on 12-08-2017 17:03 | By NZAdventurer

At the risk of being labelled as arrogant, in a previous life I was heavily involved as the International Inbound Tour Director for tourism in one of the worlds top destination countries. As such, I had considerable exposure in relation to the planning, development and delivery of tourist amenities and attractions. Everything from hotels to entertainment resorts, theme parks, cultural centres and museums. And, before you ask why I have not made myself known before - I did - to several in TCC. Needless to say, in Tauranga tradition they caged up, closed ranks and said everything was all good with Tauranga - no input needed or wanted. Years down the track Tauranga is severely lacking in visitor attractions with the city centre requiring significant redevelopment. So I may not be up to speed with the latest trends but yes Papamoaner - I still remember how to count beans.


Posted on 12-08-2017 14:38 | By Papamoaner

Another consideration hitherto unmentioned, is the potential to save a lot of money by using volunteers to conceive and construct interactive displays via liaison with schools and university labs. Why not?. Some old profs encouraged "conversationes" in varsity labs in the old days and they were very popular with the public. I was involved in SAR a few decades ago, where most of the work was done by volunteers who actually thought it was fun to go into the hills and search for people or hump a stretcher down a river bed. Saved megabucks and everyone had fun. Sometimes the Sallies would turn up at road-ends with giant hotpots of hot soup and drinks. Still happens today, but to a much lesser degree. We didn’t have choppers then.


Posted on 12-08-2017 14:05 | By Papamoaner

13 posts in a row mate, and I thought I was bad. We should rename you Miss Gatling Gun. I had to crawl right down into the bottom of my trench and curl up. The stuff was coming in from all directions. Thank heavens for nose pegs.


Posted on 12-08-2017 13:05 | By Papamoaner

At risk of being too unkind, you almost made me fall off my perch by advising me to stop viewing graphs and read words when you can’t spell to save yourself. Your writing is like that of a child, possibly a product of Lange’s "tomorrow’s schools" brainwave, that encumbered us with hoards of the illiterate. I can almost guess your age from it, such is the epidemic. Yet another reason for the educational stimulus of an interactive museum. And I see you are smoking that green crap again today - fools paradise! Next up - the bean counter! I know you’re poised out there.

Self appointed huckleberries, and the 10% rule.

Posted on 12-08-2017 09:16 | By R. Bell

Te Papa is funded to the the tune of about $60 million p.a. About 50% Crown !0% of which brings us eerily close to the $1 per week for 60,000 ratepayers, $3.125 mill. The other 50% comes from income derived from, entrance fees for exhibitions, food, shop sales, corporate donations,corporate and other conventions Koha or as some call it gold coin donations. That all brings in another $30 mill. Applying your rule = another $3 mill. That’s $6 mill all up. Last year almost 2 million people visited Te Papa almost all paying to visit exhibitions. 10% of that = well by now you get the drift. Our museum will be eminently affordable. Robin Bell.

Back to the benefits V social cost

Posted on 11-08-2017 21:07 | By Papamoaner

Whilst arguing about costs, let’s not forget the benefits. I’m not even sure "Museum" is the right word any more due to entrenched connotations. In younger days, many of us took groups of kids into the ranges, teaching them how to cook their own food, build their own bivvys etc. They love it, but there are difficulties. If anything goes wrong, you can be held responsible. Logistically, there is a limit to how many kids you can "turn around". My vision is a museum (call it what you like) that has the potential to turn these kids around en masse, quicker than outdoor training. Time is of the essence. Many people don’t realise it, but we’re in deep shit with growing numbers of aimless kids falling off the Waka, and fewer oldies caring about it.


Posted on 11-08-2017 15:14 | By Papamoaner

I see you appear not to know the difference between a business case and a business plan. You probably also have not realised throughout this debate that a business case already exits for this project. A business plan will come later, rather than put the cart before the horse. We have paid $300k for the business case, so best stick with it.

@ Pappa on yarn spinning?

Posted on 11-08-2017 14:22 | By MISS ADVENTURE

There is no sense in trying to jsutify something as "carry some risk" That is for individuals to do, not Councils with public monies. As far as the annual report of Tapapa goes, you are clearly totally engrossed with pretty pictuures and diagrams, could I suggest you try looking for a word or two, perhaps even a couple of numbers, you know try something new, try to understand teh "real" meaning of "loss" and when you eventually understand all that then perhaps come back toteh thread that is here and been here for years ... Who is going to pay other than TCC ratepayers?

@ waiknot on Pappa

Posted on 11-08-2017 14:16 | By MISS ADVENTURE

Yes you have that extremely well covered, own words even! That is ofen referred to as "falling on ones on sword. The score is 2-0 so far, trying to be nice and counting only the big bits.

@ Poppsa Pappa

Posted on 11-08-2017 14:14 | By MISS ADVENTURE

Riding a bike - many of us are miserable and liek do you think that moaning endlessly to get a new shiny toy will make any of that any better? VERY unlikely. perhaps a recent item about helicoper parents is somethign you should take a good look at, explains a lot, enjoy ... remember ... happy happy joy joy.

@ NZAdventurer

Posted on 11-08-2017 14:11 | By MISS ADVENTURE

The Tapapa numbers speak for themselves, the rundown of numbers then likely here will surely be conservative. It is without doubt a financial disaster. Even a 10% scaled down version would result in the same mess here all in proportion. There is no question that Tauranga Council ios already massively in debt, that Council has committed already to a huge spend on many a thing all new and shiny that will take that debt to well over half a billion in debt. Government will lend another $234m to TCC in addition. Clearly teh spending is out of control and that is happening rapidly.

@ NZAdventurer

Posted on 11-08-2017 14:11 | By MISS ADVENTURE

The Tapapa numbers speak for themselves, the rundown of numbers then likely here will surely be conservative. It is without doubt a financial disaster. Even a 10% scaled down version would result in the same mess here all in proportion. There is no question that Tauranga Council is already massively in debt, that Council has committed already to a huge spend on many a thing all new and shiny that will take that debt to well over half a billion in debt. Government will lend another $234m to TCC in addition. Clearly the spending is out of control and that is happening rapidly.

@ Peppa Poppa

Posted on 11-08-2017 14:03 | By MISS ADVENTURE

You asy "live long enough to see it happen", could I suggest that you move to Auckland and pay double rates and so then you can go to the empty Museum there and indudge yourself. NB one reason for teh double rates is the Museum makes a loss every year, it is huge!

@ Poppa Pappas

Posted on 11-08-2017 14:02 | By MISS ADVENTURE

You say "museum would require probably around 50% funding from TCC", so if that was it then where is the rest coming from? TCC indicate at least $30 million to "create the castle in teh sky ... " desired here, so that is $15million, where is that coming from mate! I suggest a better plan, you want it you pay and/or raise it elsewhere i.e. no rates affect. Your next challenge is that once built who is paying the annual shortfall between income and costs. Looking at the Art gallery that is around 80%+ or $850,000pa. This monstorus creation desired will be much larger and more costly to run, they are and always are.

Darker side of pots and kettles?

Posted on 11-08-2017 13:57 | By MISS ADVENTURE

Desperate is indeed a self evidence talent Mr Bell

@ maildrop - copying other people's ideas!

Posted on 11-08-2017 13:55 | By MISS ADVENTURE

That is it, nothing creative in any of that. In fact the entire ethos of TCC is to copy and replicate what otehrs do, sadly the most obvious result is the need to multiply, common sence and reality have to be eliminated, fact and truth must be banished/ignored completely. That is the pattern here, the thread below reflects that from the usual suspects with hand out for all things "new and shiny". Someone else to pay ...

@ HuckleberryNZAdventurer

Posted on 11-08-2017 12:51 | By MISS ADVENTURE

You comments are well founded and realistic. The issues of the cost, debt and running expenses will be huge if done properly the losses will be vast anyway. There are two ways to get one up and running: - those that want pay, of if there is a justified economically viable case for it then I an sure a busienssman would then leap at it. Hint, latter, no one has becuase it will never be.

@ Master bell

Posted on 11-08-2017 12:46 | By MISS ADVENTURE

You say "study of the great masters"? It is evident to me that you have not yet ’studied’ enough to gain sufficent knowledge to extoll anythign as yet. The problem is that a "little" knowledge is danagerous, you do indeed display the characteristics of this, it is deeply entrenched.

@ maildrop

Posted on 11-08-2017 12:43 | By MISS ADVENTURE

That is the truth of it, massive mortgages/debt today for a spend up to sate the whimps and desires of a few today. Not acceptable!

@ Pappa - dimly lit whispering corridors?

Posted on 11-08-2017 12:41 | By MISS ADVENTURE

Well perhaps it you took a look at eth load of stuff TCC have been paying mega-dollars to store for years then maybe you will realise that either:- it is a musty old collection blah blah as you say or if what is to be built is a huge interactve blah blah (costs more) then the load of old crap will never see the light of day. Eitherway TCC-ratepayers are going to get slugged hard if this nutter idea happens. Mortgage-a-plenty for the kids, grandkids and well beyond.


Posted on 11-08-2017 12:25 | By Papamoaner

To me, your argument is cogent and hard to dispute, but in many things in life, and particularly in business, we need to carry some risk otherwise we remain stationary and stagnate into Detroitism (I just invented that word). It is refreshing to have a rational debater enter the thread and I almost, for a minute there, congratulated you on having at last given up smoking that green crap, your handle being dangerously similar to to that of Missadventure. Yes, I had read the TePapa annual report and was quite impressed with the graphs that showed sources of revenue, especially with only 50% from govt (being a national enterprise). We should all be watching with interest to see if the gap begins to close over time, this being a very young museum.


Posted on 10-08-2017 19:48 | By waiknot

You truly amaze me, you state you know nothing of finances, you claim museums can be profitable and now you say you always new the museum would require 50% funding from council. But than again you also say at school you were called faraway (daydreamer)I think I’ve covered it here.


Posted on 10-08-2017 15:58 | By Papamoaner

That argument’s a bit Finn


Posted on 10-08-2017 11:19 | By Papamoaner

I just saw a kid, about 12 riding a bike - with one leg missing! Probably taken by a land mine. Our materialistic arguments on here, and the spectacle of the school yard bully, all paled into insignificance. These people have nothing, but they are happy. Meanwhile, we are affluent, but many of us are miserable

R. Bell - I'm Your Huckleberry - too

Posted on 10-08-2017 09:11 | By NZAdventurer

R. Bell in one of your comments you say that a museum would be very affordable. Papamoaner constantly talks about Te Papa and so on, and on and on. The 2015/16 Te Papa Annual Report with Balance Sheet is available online and makes for very interesting reading. Could it be fair to say that a new Tauranga Museum would need to be at least just one tenth the size of Te Papa, offering proportional high quality, regularly changing displays and exhibitions in order to attract visitors? Extrapolating 10% of the expenses and operating costs etc the figures paint an impossible financial reality for Taurangas 60 000 ratepayers, especially as a Tauranga Museum would be a new project with many other additional set-up, research and restoration costs. Now also add in a $30 million dollar building (which we all know will become $35/$40 or even $50 million). Very affordable?

Jumping to conclusions, and Desperate to convince,

Posted on 10-08-2017 08:53 | By R. Bell

Maildrop I suggest you re-read your own post Desperate to convince, and how you can’t understand how people can reach a conclusion without knowledge of other people. Especially the analogy on inferior complex. Seems to me, a little self indicative, considering your latest attack on papamoaner.Perhaps you actually were dropped at some time. Robin Bell.


Posted on 10-08-2017 08:47 | By Papamoaner

I have always realised that the museum would require probably around 50% funding from TCC. That’s a given (excuse cliche). I just hope I live long enough to see it happen. I have no ulterior motives. Nor do I have any difficulty looking outside the square in terms of my rates money, and I am of modest means. As for that other awful individual my wife calls Hannibal Lecter, (you all know who I mean), I can see he was a school yard bully in younger days, and that will never change, so probably now best ignored. I should have done that earlier than this because he just feeds on conflict.

Jumping to conclusions, and Desperate to convince,

Posted on 10-08-2017 08:45 | By R. Bell

Maildrop I suggest you re-read your own post Desperate to convince, and how you can’t understand how people can reach a conclusion without knowledge of other people. Especially the analogy on inferior complex. Seems to me, a little self indicative, considering your latest attack on papamoaner.Perhaps you actually were dropped at some time. Robin Bell.

Papamoaner - I'm Your Huckleberry

Posted on 10-08-2017 08:25 | By NZAdventurer

Papamoaner, a quality and engaging museum is a really big-ticket item. It cannot be something that becomes a seen it, done it. To attract regular ongoing and repeat visitors, museums have to be really exceptional in what they offer. To do this costs big money, and the figures involved are indeed scary for a very small city like Tauranga. Papamoaner, you now not only resort to condescending use of language, but you also imply that those who do not agree with a museum do not care about our children or the community. I wonder if you (or TCC) have any idea of the specialist requirements and real costs involved in delivering and operating a modern museum? Based on the past record of TCC, I am certainly not confident that they can deliver. Sorry to say that school trips, mousetraps and ping pong balls are no quite the standard required.

Not even original

Posted on 09-08-2017 20:56 | By maildrop

So Pappork thinks he’s an ideas man. He "designs and builds". All I see is someone who regurgitates. He wants a "seawater tunnel leading to an underground aquarium" and a "constantly changing museum". That would be Kelly Tarlton’s and Te Papa then! Nothing like copying other people’s ideas. And these are in big centres that might attract paying punters, but don’t. It’s nothing more than small town mentality. Councils all over the world are full of pompous fools who want to "put their town on the map". Build it and they will come. They all just regurgitate each other’s unviable ideas. Copy. Repeat. Fail. I wouldn’t mind an original idea to get my teeth into. I’m bored. I like originality. I’ve run rings around you again old chap. You can have last word but I won’t be reading it like you reading this. Know that.

Here's hoping

Posted on 09-08-2017 17:53 | By waiknot

Well Papamoaner, if the finances don’t stack up this museum will very quickly become dark and dusty with interactive exhibits that have ground to a holt. The very thing you don’t want. A business plan needs to be done asap. Deciding you need a museum and its location and deciding it’s going to happen without an understanding of the financial reality is stupidity, unless of course you are spending other people’s money. We all know museums are not a money making venture (with the odd exemptions) otherwise private enterprise would have built it already. What we need to know is will it need a subsidy from council (it probably will) and how much that is projected to be. only when we know this can a decision regards social benefits v financial costs be make.

What's GFC ? Dumb eh!

Posted on 09-08-2017 16:57 | By Papamoaner

After reading Maildrop’s post, I had to look up the meaning of GFC2. I still have a clear memory of the night Sir Robert Muldoon had a couple of quiet ones with his colleagues and called a snap election. Then in stepped Roger and the rest we know. Some would say Rogernomics saved us, but others equally allude to the damage he did. The bottom line is, we are all still here facing yet another doomsday, predicted by Maildrop. But when I look around me, I see young couples everywhere with mortgages, two cars and a boat, filling up the bars and cafes.I notice quite a few shop windows in towns and cities displaying STAFF WANTED stickers, and I keep getting LINKEDIN email flyers telling me there are 500 vacancies here and 400 there etc. What comes around goes around.


Posted on 09-08-2017 16:11 | By Papamoaner

You have mentioned three times now, my earlier reference to a "constantly changing" museum, so I will qualify it for you. By that, I mean there would not be the same old displays month by month of musty old artefacts as alluded to by Misadventure. Rather interactive live (not computer) modelling and displays of how stuff works etc, interspersed with the old traditional stuff that still needs to be seen, on the basis that if we don’t look back, we will have difficulty looking forward, and there are endless empirical examples of that if you wish to question it. As to your last comment (quote) "Superior intellect you say" it was lost on me! Can you elaborate please. It is certainly not something I ever said, but you appear to think you are quoting me.


Posted on 09-08-2017 15:27 | By Papamoaner

Thanks, but I don’t pretend to know much at all about fiscal matters due to lack of education caused by falling asleep with boredom every time the subject was mentioned, as tech "boffins" (usually said unkindly) are apt to do. We design and build stuff, they count it, beans and all. We’re happy with that. But the various museum financial reports and balance sheets I have seen, all seem to say the same thing - that properly managed, a museum does not require unreasonable government support, albeit local, regional, or national, to keep operating, and it gets better over time. The benefits to the community are enormous if you examine them in detail.

Double standards again

Posted on 09-08-2017 15:11 | By maildrop

So Pappork is aware of the "crippling debt" the younger generation are facing! And his legacy is to leave a constantly changing museum and even more debt. I’m sure when GFC 2.0 hits and these young people are facing huge mortgages and 40% negative equity, they will appreciate paying for his flights of fancy. That’s if they are lucky enough to keep their home. It’s only 8 years since the wheels almost came off and it is only on ice, yet everyone feels flush because their house is "worth" a million bucks. It must be nice to be golden generation, with no debt and rolling in cash, deciding what your small town can spend the next generation’s money on. How selfish, or is it just plain stupidity? You cannot see the wood for trees. Blinded by your lucky privileged position. Superior intellect you say. Mmm..right oh.


Posted on 09-08-2017 15:03 | By Papamoaner

With respect, previous criticisms aside, you appear not to fully appreciate what an interactive museum is. Your memory of musty old glass cabinet museums in dimly lit whispering corridors, with displays that seldom change, is correct. These days, a state of the art interactive museum is nothing like that. But they are not educational institutes either. They are the epitome of stimulus. They are the catalyst that grabs the fascination of people, especially the young, and inspires them to learn more. They can potentially be the "university entrance" for kids like those very talented young grafitti artists who "vandalise" our cities. Some of their stuff is quite remarkable, yet we have people like a guy recently back on here again that my wife calls Hannibal lecter, who would arrogantly categorise them as "losers" A museum could save them!

@ Papa - selective sometimes

Posted on 09-08-2017 12:54 | By MISS ADVENTURE

So that rundown is all lovely and almost concilatory. Fact is you are (as with a few others) expect that all TCC Ratepayers will bank roll "any" Museum dreamed up. There are two Museums that I know of that make a profit and are self supporting, intentions here and with almost all others is that "same stuff" seen one seen all ... very much applies. The collection of "stuff" (being kind, VERY kind) does not have difference/WOW factor nothing special to make a point of difference to mean anything useful. If it is to be a window on the areas history then that will be of little interest to outsiders and "seen it already" for locals. So what exactly is the "massive" market share/available that is going to generate some $10-12 million annually in icome to breakeven? Just to Break even!


Posted on 09-08-2017 12:11 | By waiknot

Let us all hope your optimism is proven to be correct.

No art was ever less spontaneous than mine.

Posted on 09-08-2017 11:45 | By R. Bell

What I do is the result of reflection and study of the great masters, of inspiration, spontaneity and temperament...........I know nothing...... Edward Dega. one of the masters. That you wish to deny every opportunity to our children and others, over a few bucks is pathetic maildrop...... Robin Bell.


Posted on 09-08-2017 09:23 | By Papamoaner

Your last post opened the way for us to put the yay/nay argument aside and start discussing the nature of the museum. Imagine what it would do for kids if we constructed a working model of a nuclear fission reaction using 500 mousetraps and pingpong balls. It’s not my own invention by the way, just an old physics lab experiment reborn, that is so spectacular it deserves to be out there. Kids would go away and tell their mates, and next thing you would have a crowd. Of course these things are simulated these days on computer screens, and that’s the philosophical problem with our society now - it’s all plug and play with no concept nor appreciation of first principles, so our fate might well be a race of zombies who can’t make anything any more, let alone shoe a horse.

We all get a bit selective sometimes

Posted on 09-08-2017 08:59 | By Papamoaner

Maildrop forgot to mention the Kelly Tarlton Aquarium Museum right here in NZ, Auckland to be precise, that has moved beyond self sufficiency and now makes a profit. I have never predicted that outcome for Tauranga, but used it, and others, to illustrate that a museum would not be funded completely by ratepayers, but by a combination of inputs that should (might) eventually reduce ratepayer cost with huge returns in terms of benefit to the community. Those benefits should not be underestimated, but sadly are by some.

The fear of being ridden like donkeys, maildrop

Posted on 09-08-2017 08:32 | By R. Bell

seems your main fear and concern. Museums are inherently "not for profit" waiknot established that weeks ago. The actual cost however is not as great as the doomsday merchants would have us believe. If we get it, we will pay for it, no doubt. Rather than concentrate on its desirability we should concentrate on how to make it as self sustaining as possible. In the end it comes down to good management, learning from other examples, promotion, reputation building etc. To claim it can’t be done is akin to admitting we are the village by the sea, as some claim. Nothing to show but roadzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz and sewerzzzzzzzzzzzz. Time for a kip. Robin Bell.

Back on topic

Posted on 08-08-2017 17:16 | By maildrop

Speaking of hillbillies and thin membranes, Papamoaner mentioned Te Papa earlier. Does he realise it only survives on sponsors, local authority grants, and most importantly central government who provide 50% of its funding? Hardly a cash cow is it and this the national centrepiece! So, his dream of a "constantly changing museum" in Tauranga will clearly be nothing but a drain on the people with good sense, as opposed to the flights of fancy of those with no sense at all. Museums all over the world rely on taxpayers, year and year, to survive. If wall-Es like Pappork and co get their way the ratepayers of Tauranga will be saddled and ridden like donkeys. They are convinced that are so superior that their idea of a museum can defy all that have tried and failed before. Taking the piss all right.

Steady on Robin

Posted on 08-08-2017 15:35 | By Papamoaner

You were perhaps hastily a tad judgemental that time (old chap). One of my best primary school mates all those decades ago, was "Dingdong" Bell. Another was "Chocolate" Andrews. (your guess) (both good bastards I might add). Neither names are acceptable today, but in those days they were just endearments as opposed to ignorant in the context of arrogant. . I was often called "faraway" (daydreamer). We have to remember those were the days when people walked everywhere and spoke to each other instead of swishing past each other in cars. But there’s another side too - If somebody collapsed in the street in the old days, most people stood around looking scared, and did nothing. These days there is no shortage of help rushing in. As they say, "there’s nought so queer as folk".

Back on topic:

Posted on 08-08-2017 13:33 | By waiknot

It would appear the museum is going to happen regardless of what the silent majority may or may not want hehe. So let’s make sure it’s a good one in the right location.


Posted on 08-08-2017 13:22 | By Papamoaner

Thank you Robin - appreciated. I have a thick skin too, but there are some remarkably thin membranes around these hills. Unwisely, I sometimes can’t resist taking the piss out of them - my own brand of weakness, so there for the grace of god go I. Hardly a hanging offence. Yes, I am well intended and do some stuff I don’t get paid for. I worry about all these kids growing up doing smart stuff by what I call "plug and play mentality" but they don’t actually have any concept of first principles. Varsity was virtually free in our day, now it comes with crippling debt, so what chance do they have? A constantly changing interactive museum is one solution, but it must be affordable lest we exclude our main targets. I remain hopeful - never give up!


Posted on 08-08-2017 12:56 | By waiknot

R Bell, I follow your logic thank you. Papamoaner your latest post confirms most of what I have said about you. I think it’s time to stop, you will wish to have the last word so go on reply to this


Posted on 08-08-2017 12:54 | By waiknot

R Bell, I follow your logic thank you. Papamoaner your latest post confirms most of what I have said about you. I think it’s time to stop, you will wish to have the last word so go on reply to this

Serenity imminent?

Posted on 08-08-2017 12:03 | By Papamoaner

Not sure if I will have reliable internet access for a while, so might be a bit of peace and quiet for all those museum opposers and their backup posers. I don’t expect I’ll be missed, but happy debating to you all anyway.

Waiknot, you have not offended,

Posted on 08-08-2017 11:52 | By R. Bell

actually I never take offence. When you have a name like Bell you learn at an early age that terms like "clanger" ’dingaling" "donga"and the rest are the language of the ignorant. Gave me a thick skin you could say. I thank you for your kind words, but I do think your a bit hard on papamoaner, he means well and like all on here (well most) is sincere. Robin Bell.


Posted on 08-08-2017 10:06 | By Papamoaner

Touche Waiknot! You are unable to answer my question about alleged "amazing backtracks" instead now attempting to convert them into "massively personal" What kind of sidestepping gobbledegook is that for god’s sake? I simply usually return punch with counterpunch and make no apology for it.The emperor has no clothes!

@Murray Guy

Posted on 08-08-2017 10:00 | By Papamoaner

Thanks for sharing that info Murray. I favour Cliff Road, not just because I have a few ideas that would require regular pumping of seawater in and out, but also because it’s a short pleasant walk from potential cruise ship berthing. I don’t understand why Waiknot keeps posturing about a business plan. He puts the cart before the horse. We haven’t finished with the business case, and at a cost of around 300k we ought to be taking it more seriously. However, my advice to submitters with innovative ideas, is don’t jump the gun yet as you have until around March 2018 to submit, and you might have fresh ideas to add between now and then. Every submission is taken seriously, so helps a lot. These are indeed exciting days for those of us who care about kids and the community.

The need for a cultural heart to the city,

Posted on 08-08-2017 09:39 | By R. Bell

is well documented and examples exist worldwide. Waiknot, the income of T.C.C. is derived in roughly 50-50 rates and other income. There are 60,000 rate paying properties,$60,000 per week times 52 weeks =$ 3.12 million per annum. The proposed cost is 30 million, less any govt subsidy ( Heritage and Culture ) less any input from other sources. The Mayor is on record stating ’lets see if those promising assistance or investment keep their word". The $30 mill could easily reduce substantially. Income from imported exhibits and permanent display promise a substantial ongoing income. It is my sincere belief that this proposition is very affordable for a rapidly growing income stream. Pedantic opposition from the likes of missy and co are political and have no place at this level of "debate". Robin Bell.


Posted on 08-08-2017 09:39 | By waiknot

You too can be mischievous, you well know it’s not just the words but context, and you have used the tearm old chap, I’m not sure if it was me but either way in a demeaning way to people you infer are of a lower intellect than you. I’ve just chosen perhaps unwisely to return the favour. R Bell on the other hand is always on topic, and restrained from flights of fancy. I apologise if I’ve offended him/her. Papamoaner you ask for an example of one of your amazing backtracks. I have provided this already. You really must go back and read your own posts, there is a massive track record of you getting personal. I recommend you attempt to meet your own high standards before attacking others.

@ Murray

Posted on 07-08-2017 23:29 | By MISS ADVENTURE

Yes, some obvious comments there, the CBD is a mess especially with respect to parking. The TCC mob have their heads in a dark place. in complete denial of it. Yet carry on regardless. The existing bus stop has already highlighted the issue despite public oppoisiton at the time. Now they want to move that to, belatedly, costly. Best option for any Museum is either Historic Village and existing building there or as you suggest the soon to be ex Bowling Club. The true nature and feasability of a Museum is almost certainly to be a financial disaster, the only question really is how big are the losses really going to be. As reality is this, the supporters have absolutely avoided answering and failed to provide any idea of how these massive losses and debts are to be paid, importantly by who. Yet the demands follow like day-night relentlessly.

Murray Guy

Posted on 07-08-2017 19:51 | By waiknot

I see the connection with the battle of Gate Pa site across the road. My gut feeling is apart from that it is little removed from other parts of Tauranga. The CBD may not be the most vibrant but it’s still the CBD. The Elms to CBD is a nice stroll.

Museums and Libraries are our community souls.

Posted on 07-08-2017 18:11 | By Papamoaner

I see Joanna at the new Greerton library has returned a 67% increase in patronage in the first 12 months. But as a bit of a bookworm, I have to grudgingly acknowledge that when it comes to reference books, the ebook and web are faster searching, but often frustrating with science and technology because it’s only as good as what’s been uploaded, whereas print material tends to be complete and permanent. Similarly, traditional museums are no match for modern interactive museums. But if you’re like say for example Missadventure, and have no concept of what a modern interactive museum actually is, then you’re doomed and banished to the corridors of the unclean, where the bleating echos, are universally incoherent..

Desperate to convince

Posted on 07-08-2017 16:57 | By maildrop

It is strange that Pap also often resorts to telling people he has a superior intellect to others. Quite how people can come to that conclusion when they have no knowledge of the other person I don’t know. Of course it could be that they are actually insecure and have a inferiority complex but are over compensating and trying to convince others. There is more to intellect than pontificating and googling a few things to try and convince others you are smart. And simply agreeing with everything somebody puts shows very little intellect and certainly insecurity.


Posted on 07-08-2017 16:29 | By Papamoaner

Thank you for your compliments, but I am not sure I am deserving of them. Could I ask a favour? Would you please be so kind as to illustrate one of my alleged "amazing backtracks" by way of example so that I can consciously apply this evidently breathtaking new strategy rather than subconsciously? Despite all those intrinsic suspicions you harbour, this is not a loaded question - I really am mystified by these mystical "amazing backtracks" you allude to. Far be it from me to accuse you of hallucinating, or, god forbid, deliberate construction! No, let’s not even go there. Instead, I’ll just await your response young chap.

White Elephant Historic Village

Posted on 07-08-2017 15:23 | By Tamati TK

If council has not managed to maintain its own buildings over past years how do they possibly expect the public to get behind another new building for a museum? They already have a white elephant Historic Village so that is the perfect place for them to have a go at operating their museum. We all know that it will just end up as another council cash handout given every year just like the Art Gallery, and. and. and .

R Bell

Posted on 07-08-2017 14:17 | By waiknot

I don’t believe I’ve ever claimed to be neutral, but regardless I ask as your quoted figures usually have substance behind them and are worth further reading.

Birds of a feather---

Posted on 07-08-2017 14:03 | By Papamoaner

And the rest of the quotation you know. Doesn’t mean we are cronies as mischievously inferred, but I do make the observation that intellectually challenged people invariably point that finger. It is very prominent in prison environments for example, the birthplace of the word "snitch" On another subject, It seems I have offended Waiknot merely by calling him "old chap" Interesting psychology that he would even bother to raise it! Hey old buddy, stop acting like a sheila.Maybe I ought to stop calling my wife "old girl" Then we have Maildrip - interesting character. Has no idea what a ball looks like, but fascinated by players, especially "tragic" ones with an opinion. Speaking of which, I am away off topic, but a bit of humour is a welcome distraction in measured doses. Do we agree at last?

Good suggestion Murray,

Posted on 07-08-2017 13:56 | By R. Bell

not sure how it will be received but you never know.I think Cliff road would be better but agree access and parking is a problem. Can’t say anymore I’ve just been given the sack by missy " you know who." Robin Bell.

Gate Pa Bowling Club now available.

Posted on 07-08-2017 13:08 | By Murray.Guy

Gate Pa Bowling Club on Cameron Rd are vacating their facility. Tauranga City Council refuse to consider ANY site other than the CBD or Cliff Rd. This is likely the most appropriate location for the location of a museum/cultural facility for our region, the site of the Battle of Gate Pa, elevated with direct views to Mauao, ample land and multiple access points with direct access to five roads. Strategically well placed to accommodate future expansion and today’s access and parking needs for cars and tour coaches. Without doubt ticks more boxes than possible any other location, certainly far more so than the restricted, congested CBD options (other than on site at The Elms which has amply opportunity and space, but not ’the will’ apparently).

@ R. Bell

Posted on 07-08-2017 12:19 | By MISS ADVENTURE

Questions in the circumstances are entire acceptable, you have been found wanting and provied so therefore it would be wise (a new thing) to provide verification (a new thing) and evidence (a new thing) to prove what you say. The prime reason for this is that a debate should be about useful thing, truth and reality where predetermined outcomes and answers are eliminated. Instead replaced with logic, evidence and realism. Ten you may join the subject debate.

Maildrop, if you want to have a crack

Posted on 07-08-2017 12:00 | By R. Bell

at me, do so up front. I usually support papamoaner simply because I happen to agree with most he says, certainly on this subject. Perhaps for once you should question your own perceptions, instead of attacking all who appear to have a " slightly" superior intellect to your own. The invitation stands, have a crack. Robin Bell.

@ waiknot

Posted on 07-08-2017 11:54 | By MISS ADVENTURE

Well said, this is indeed a common thread, the gap is vast between self delivery and the demands and expectations from others. The real reason for this is that if you agree blindly then you are a "friend" and good ..." if you dare question then the usual banter erupts. Personal attacks and insults and nothing factual of course. The response is about defending the answer desired, it is not about proving that which does not exist.

Waiknot or Whatnot that is the question.

Posted on 07-08-2017 09:06 | By R. Bell

You question my figures, but not the endless made up and moulded, exaggerated, and invented figures supplied by missy and cohorts. Why is that waiknot? Your ambiguity is without comparison. When you decide to be truly neutral as you claim, I will share my research with you. Robin Bell.


Posted on 07-08-2017 02:15 | By maildrop

Looks like a few people are realising your game. I’m surprised Morepork hasn’t joined in to back you up like RBell does. Tragic.

@Waiknot - settle down!

Posted on 06-08-2017 21:08 | By Papamoaner

It is not my intention to irritate or get under my opponent’s skins as seems to be the case with you, having twice now accused me of being "rescued" by folk who agree with my argument. Try to remain objective and stay on topic. We all occasionally slip those standards when irritated, but lately you are drifting more towards personal attack as a debating technique, which resolves nothing. I hope this transmits ok because the WIFI keeps dropping out here.

mischievous, who me?

Posted on 06-08-2017 19:44 | By waiknot

Yes of course I am, have you just realised this. But mischievous for a reason. I’m continually amused at the high standards you expect but can’t deliver yourself. You are repeatedly condescending old chap when pushed to the wall. Your amazing backtracks after really amazing out there statements. I repeat your by hook or crook comment becouse it was I assume a comment you make with a sudden rush of blood to the head that really highlighted your position on this. You want a museum at any cost, a fiscally irresponsible attitude.


Posted on 06-08-2017 13:55 | By Papamoaner

Your analyses are consistently authentic Robin. Reminds me of the world famous Kalgoorlie Casino that quite curiously attracts remarkable numbers of tourists. A virtual interactive museum of sorts. Visualise that casino in the centre of Tauranga surrounded by happy and content ratepayers polishing their most loved asset (their flash car) regularly, oblivious to its rapid depreciation. Kalgoorlie is a small town in the red Nullabor desert of western Australia. The Casino is a circle of concrete, I guess about 20 metres in diameter, with a wire fence around it, upon which coins are tossed in a winner takes all "two-up" contest. Local police enforce a rule that nobody leaves for an hour after the winner leaves. Too parochial for Tauranga? I don’t think so. All said and done, we do have synchronous swimming you know.


Posted on 06-08-2017 11:09 | By Papamoaner

I apologise if I inadvertently referred to you as T.McIntosh in another post. Meanwhile can I suggest you take a look at the history and annual report for Kelly Tarlton Aquarium Museum. It’s a very interesting read, as is the annual report in pdf format for TePapa.


Posted on 06-08-2017 10:47 | By Papamoaner

Where do you find the time to waste by repeatedly and childishly parroting a throw-away expression I used an eternity ago? "By hook or by crook" has literal and generic meanings, and you know better because you are not stupid like Missy. You are therefore being mischievous. You let yourself down because you know I am not illegally inclined. Expressing "one way or another" has several interpretations, one example being "by referenda, or by executive decision". You are not contributing anything of worth to the debate by being pedantic. On that note, Minib will doubtless now inform you that you have been told off by Papamoaner !

R Bell

Posted on 06-08-2017 10:36 | By waiknot

Where do you get the $1 a week figure from? Im still waiting for a business plan.

Thanks Robin

Posted on 06-08-2017 10:31 | By Papamoaner

Every family in these villages here have at least one rooster, probably for cock fighting. They flap their wings loudly about an hour before dawn, then start crowing, but you get used to it after the first day or two and don’t notice them any more. I have already named the nearest one "MissAdventure", Missy for short. Not a bad analogy in the general scheme of things.


Posted on 06-08-2017 10:23 | By Papamoaner

I appreciated you acknowledging my good intentions, which I do have. I reiterate;- the poll Gail McIntosh referred to returned a result of 49% for a museum, 31 against, 20 undecided. Each side of the debate might have a chance of swaying the undecided, so I favour a general referendum of citizens formally conducted and audited. My advice to posters at large, is do your own homework, avoid media records and search council meeting and committee minutes, all of which are available online. Ignore all else as anecdotal and you will get the "good oil" on this issue.

Preserving what we have ( nothing) at any cost

Posted on 06-08-2017 10:16 | By R. Bell

is the objective of many on this thread. Some would have us remain a cultural backwater, no history,no heritage preservation, no regional transport, nothing to assist the development that all great and potentially great cities have. Intangible values are an anathema to these people. Tauranga has the potential to be a great modern city, but will remain a simple nothing on the international scene, if those represented by missy,dumbkof,maryfaith etc have their negative way Robin Bell.

Enjoy your trip papamoaner,

Posted on 06-08-2017 09:11 | By R. Bell

and don’t worry, the grizzlers will still be here when you get back. Cheers, Robin Bell.

The proverbial mind block,

Posted on 06-08-2017 09:08 | By R. Bell

engaged in by missy and "her" support group is insurmountable. No concern for the intellectual value of a modern museum, no concern for the improved value for tourism, no concern for the potential improvement of the CITY centre, no concern for the educational value to our children, no concern for the recreational value to our senior citizens. What a wonderful, unconcerned, fantasy world they live in. The only concern expressed is the fear of a piddling $1 a week max added to their rates. Get a life you crowd. Robin Bell.

@ mutley - Does enthusiasm equal funding ??

Posted on 05-08-2017 14:46 | By MISS ADVENTURE

No, if the previous article where the support crew were is anythign to go by. The photo attached showed three disinterested occupants at the display site, one over zealous Councillor holding up a sign or something and one member of the public (at a distance) hands in pockets looking ratehr confused about it all. Most likely a timely photo taken for the single moment that they accidently stopped. That is the "huge" support illustrated, shown and some!

Reality is hard for some to understand

Posted on 05-08-2017 14:16 | By MISS ADVENTURE

By my understanding the vast majority isn’t anything collectable, is nothing special, unique or otherwise, there is little of value from an antiquity angle, virtually all (say >95%) falls well below anything in any of these categories that would merit keeping it by anyone except some Neanderthal type addict obsessed with collecting some particular thing, odd as it may be. There are some things of perhaps some interest to the few, perhaps worthy of some place to view them short term, but once seen then the best applicable comment would be "see it done it ... not going back". That then places all in the "once category". The number of expected visitors then is reflected primarily by busloads of kids being ferried endless numerous times per year all to see the same thing and a day off every year. The merit is this fails very rapidly, before started.

@Minib Re Gail McIntosh

Posted on 05-08-2017 10:57 | By Papamoaner

More dishonesty! Have you no integrity at all? Read the background papers and material, not just the small misleading parts you want to, to give a wrong impression. Anyway, I am working overseas for a bit with limited time for this, so might have to give it a miss for a while, but I’ll be back. Meanwhile, try to be honest and objective, there’s a good chap.

In reply to Papamoaner

Posted on 05-08-2017 10:43 | By TMcDonald

Privately funded museum. yeah right. I’ve heard that line before! For some like me, it is a question of integrity. What TCC says or implies is not necessarily what TCC means or does. I can remember when the Art Gallery idea was sold to us as fully self-sustaining. To this day it is funded by ratepayers by way of council grant. There are many, many other examples too. Papamoaner, your intentions are good but if you look at the downtown area in isolation (not greater Tauranga) surely even you would have to admit that it is not in good shape by any measure. This is the doing of TCC through atleast fifteen years of poor management with a total lack of forward planning and vision. Now it seems like TCC are in a flat panic, throwing money around in a bid to rectify everything overnight no matterwhat thecost.

Sorry Papamoaner

Posted on 05-08-2017 10:07 | By waiknot

But I do find it humorous how you on a number of occasions have been saved by the Bell. And when you have been caught out your long winded explanations. The best was when you said by hook or crook we will get a museum. This does reflect your credibility or lack off. Incidentally if you were to google Gail McIntosh 3 July 2015 the article undermines the assumption the silent majority want a museum.

The blame game,

Posted on 05-08-2017 09:06 | By R. Bell

engaged in by negative comments re a museum, can only be described as pathetic. TCC like all councils are charged with improving the social needs of its population, ALL of its population. Tauranga is growing faster than ever. We have attracted brilliant business people who are often stymied by the negative thinking naysayers evident ( on a continual basis) in these columns. Over the last ten years, all relevant polling shows we are ready for a joint initiative, the only poll showing a negative result being a self selecting "poll"run by Sunlive. That is fine, but can hardly be described as scientific. Except by missy of course. Robin Bell.

@ Minib

Posted on 04-08-2017 15:26 | By MISS ADVENTURE

So the game being played is revealed to be worse than expected or propagated by Mister Bell and Master Pappa. out of date, misleading and completely lied about the result, love it. Well done folks for revealing the truth of it, VERY much appreciated.

No Appetite

Posted on 04-08-2017 14:38 | By Minib

Sorry Article was 3rd of July 2015.

No Appetite

Posted on 04-08-2017 14:32 | By Minib

Please read Gail macintosh 6th June 2015 which shows a Museum is not wanted.

@ waiknot

Posted on 04-08-2017 13:23 | By MISS ADVENTURE

The more historoical the reference the more wild the claims and demands of "facts" are dubious at best, this is the displayed talent of Mister Bell and Master Pappa. The poll exageratuins abound. Most happy that they have been sprung. Robson is clearly right, the Poll did not occur during his term at TCC, so Bell/Pappa owe the Girl Guide $100, please confirm when done laddies.


Posted on 04-08-2017 13:19 | By Papamoaner

You’re being rather selective. You criticised the city reference in my post, but completely ignored the "who pays" reference. The implication being that you want the minions to think we advocate that TCC pay all for the museum. WE DON’T. Read my post again about how museums are normally funded. As I said, one museum progressed to profit status, so costs ratepayers nothing, but continues to attract $$$ into the region. Word of the day;- BALANCE. Or swings and roundabouts if you prefer.


Posted on 04-08-2017 12:50 | By Papamoaner

No need to keep swinging it in a personal direction as you now seem inclined to do. We’re all guilty of it now and again, but it’s lately becoming your standard MO. I am still waiting for Sunlive to post my response to John which was immediate. In a nutshell, the poll exists and the result figures are accurate. Yes, 2015 was the date Gail McIntosh referred to it. That time error is hardly credible justification for attempting to completely invalidate it. A bit pedantic don’t you think? John cannot say it doesn’t exist, and I don’t accuse him of that -yet. Seems women’s refuge missed out on a technicality if integrity doesn’t come to the rescue. Rescued by Robin? From what? I haven’t heard you deny that poll exists!

Just not enough foot traffic in Tauranga central

Posted on 04-08-2017 12:30 | By Jayleen Wood

A museum would be nice, but Tauranga has far more pressing issues and priorities. Thousands of cruise ship passengers continue to be met by an amateur style tented container setup with traffic chaos. Most of our young adults leave Tauranga as quickly as they can, as there are limited advancement opportunities. During the week, one can barely order a main meal in a restaurant after 8.30pm as the kitchen is closed and the chef has gone home for the night. But most importantly we simply dont have enough day-to-day foot traffic visiting Tauranga central to carry the huge cost burden of a museum. Gold coin donations and school trips will not pay the bills. Put it to a vote with full truthful disclosure of all building and ongoing operating costs on the table. I do not hear of any private investment coming forward for this venture. I wonder why?


Posted on 04-08-2017 10:27 | By Papamoaner

Agree with most of that. Museums and art galleries go well together in a common venue anyway. Maybe we need a fresh poll formally conducted, to include all bonafide residents, not just ratepayers, but first formal proposals, so that folks have simple choices when voting for proposal A, B, C, or no museum at all. Business plan is a given. I’ve just about done my dash on here, pretty much guaged the objectors, very few of which have any tangible objection basis - they "just don’t want a museum" per se. You will always get that. It is about the right time now, to start preparing formal submissions. Indeed, if we are likely to get any sort of referenda, now is also the time to prepare articles on argument for public lobby. Further discussion on here is unlikely to be productive.


Posted on 04-08-2017 07:56 | By waiknot

R Bell to the rescue again, I note you avoided responding to Jon Robson. No doubt you will have some long winded convoluted explanation up your sleeve again. The truth about your position was clearly stated by you in an earlier post. It went something like this: by hook or by crook we will get a museum.

The R. Bell & Papamoana roadshow!

Posted on 04-08-2017 07:49 | By TMcDonald

One would think that Tauranga has a population of over a million and is cash flush. Instead we are several hundred million dollars in debt, with a small population that could almost fit inside some of the worlds large stadiums all at one go! No international branded hotels, no international airport, no passenger rail quality stadium no this and no that and especially not a single unique and enticing attraction in Tauranga bar Mauao + beaches. To nit pick as to what legally defines a city status in NZ is being deliberately obtuse. Look around you. Do you seriously think we are on par in terms of infrastructure with real world cities? There is no business case to spend tens of millions on a Museum to satisfy the desires of a few. We are simply not ready for it yet. If privately funded great, otherwise no.

For the record:

Posted on 03-08-2017 21:14 | By waiknot

I’d love a museum, and to me there is only one site. Cliff Rd by the Mission House. I’d also rather they built a museum instead of the Art Gallery priorities wrong way round in my view. Those who say just build it anywhere remember you will only get one chance at this. This poll or whatever we here about was in 2015, now it appears to be well before 2013??? Perhaps the results should be displayed in the historic section of the museum either way they appear to be of limited relevance today. As much as I like the idea of a museum it will only attract the a % of the Cruze ship passengers who choose not to go to Rotorua. So a small % of a small % as I see it. Do a proper business plan for all to see

Thank you R.Bell

Posted on 03-08-2017 18:51 | By Papamoaner

I might never have noticed my error of difference in the year of the poll were it not pointed out by you. Perhaps John might now concede the poll exists, the exact timing being a bit irrelevant. The result numbers being accurate is of course, the pivotal point. I don’t accuse him of being pedantic either. Doubtless he looked it up and couldn’t find it - fair enough. His use of the word Nuance might do the trick anyway. Interesting that his is the only response to that poll being referenced isn’t it. Early days maybe.

A word of explanation for John Robson

Posted on 03-08-2017 18:05 | By R. Bell

re Papamoaner. The poll referred to was not taken in 2015, it was referenced by Gail McIntosh when denying money for museum research in 2015. It was taken by council well before your time. The poll showed the results papamoaner and myself have consistently quoted in this "debate" which of course is not a debate at all. Robin Bell.

Some are shamelessly economical with the truth

Posted on 03-08-2017 16:48 | By Papamoaner

City status is defined by law and Tauranga qualifies by more than a 200% margin. Describing it as a beach TOWN is an exaggeration by use of capitals, therefore deliberately dishonest. Tauranga is actually the 9th largest city in NZ, not quite double Rotorua. Nobody ever claimed on these threads that TCC should alone fund the museum as inferred. Are there any existing museums in NZ that are solely council funded? I doubt it. Even the National museum of TePapa is only 50% govt funded, and given its short life thus far, we could predict that gap to close over time. There is at least one other museum whose revenue has grown rapidly to the point where it made a profit and subsequently got sold to private enterprise for $13 million and is still thriving by continuing to draw huge crowds.

YOU ARE CORRECT joycereed, plus @ R. Bell

Posted on 03-08-2017 14:53 | By Angela (Mt Maunganui)

R. Bell please list your topten attractions in Tauranga (excluding natural attractions like the Mount and beaches) that are unique for a marketing proposition to the domestic and international tourist & visitor market. Part of the problem is that so much of Taurangas growth is just housing and the small business that comes with it by default. To suggest that the downtown Tauranga centre is worthy of city status is ludicrous. In many large cities, Tauranga with its approx 140 000 population would be called a suburb. It is as joycereed said: a town with several streets, no heart and little vibrancy. Ask yourself who is mostly responsible for this? Building permits are one thing, reality on the street is quite another. Rotorua has half our population and ten times the attractions and activities of Tauranga. One does have to acknowledge past failures to avoid repeat mistakes. NO MUSEUM!


Posted on 03-08-2017 13:52 | By Papamoaner

Well said, and very valid points. I guess one could say "you nailed it" There are a few who would hold us back and one wonders if they just want us to have Morris dancing, a Banjo school, and perhaps a straw hat shop to attract tourists. The questionable behaviour of some objectors contributes nothing to the debate either. For example, I note that MissAdventure continues to just cut and paste old comments from another museum thread that has pretty much petered out.

@ joycereed and iPoppy

Posted on 03-08-2017 13:35 | By MISS ADVENTURE

My vote to, same. It is a pointless egotistically based fantasy of a few spongers wanting there "nice to hapves" paid for by others who dont want to pay for their pleasures and simply ask you want you do it and pay for it.

Calling BS on Papamoaner.

Posted on 03-08-2017 10:19 | By john robson

I was an elected TCC Councillor from 2013 to 2016. There was no TCC poll of ratepayers re a museum in 2015. If I am proven wriong, I will donate $100 to Women’s Refuge. I challenge Papamoaner to prove their assertion or do the same. And for those who are already jumping to conclusions, I support the idea of a museum in Tauranga. One final point - the quality of ’debate’ on this site reminds me of the quality of debate in the Council Chamber - short on balance, evidence, facts, intellect, logic and, most importantly, nuance. An opportunity for Sun Media journalists to step up, perhaps.

Wrong joycereed,

Posted on 03-08-2017 08:30 | By R. Bell

Tauranga issued 17 times more building permits last year than Rotorua. We are the fastest growing city/region in N.Z. If you enjoy small coastal town status, consider Opotiki or all points east. Councils evolve with time and develop facilities to suit. A museum is part of that growth, it goes without saying the burden should not fall totally on those who cannot recoup the cost, one way or another. Robin Bell.

Maryfaith you nailed it!

Posted on 02-08-2017 23:44 | By JoyceR

Tauranga is a beachside TOWN with lots of residential housing - not an all encompassing city that should be prioritising a museum that will be of short term interest to some residents, a few visitors and school trips. For some (according to comments on another similar article) to believe that TCC is capable of building, maintaining, funding and operating a world class museum with the required large scale interactive displays is laughable. Consider the track record of TCC and its organisations - Downtown Tauranga, The Historic Village, TBOP, Baypark They have no idea what it takes to operate an engaging museum venue. Reality check - you cannot learn to run if you cannot walk - and in terms of a vibrant (city) offering attractions and activities (other than the natural environment) Tauranga is just starting to crawl. Bad planning and poor decision making will cost ratepayers big down thetrack.

Picture - how about this?

Posted on 02-08-2017 22:53 | By MISS ADVENTURE

Use teh empty building on Willow Street as a Museum, that will save a million a year beign spent already on mostly junk stored at a huge cost for no good reason. When it does not work then Willow St Building and the conents can all be disposed off all at once, that will get two birds with one stone. Definitely a win-win situation there. After the Demolition is cleared away, then plant grass, nothing else but grass and WALK AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Posted on 02-08-2017 17:59 | By IPoppy

Wow, can’t even be bothered reading all the comments - my vote NO MUSEUM - why the frik does every town or city think it needs a museum? We are a tiny tiny country, we have Te Papa we have the Auckland museum why do we need another one here? enough with the old lets focus on the future instead

@ Pappa - update

Posted on 02-08-2017 16:59 | By MISS ADVENTURE

I have seen the "collection" of "invaluable" items that are already costing ratepayers some $1m annually now, I stand by my comment below as to the merit, value and extent of the contents of the shed at the Mount.. My previous comments are made with knowledge, actual personal knowledge and based upon reality/fact. That is how I operate. Regrettably that is not the same or desired view that you wish to have, hold on to and propagate. The load of stuff stored mostly and vast majority is a pile of junk.

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

Posted on 02-08-2017 16:03 | By R. Bell

Maryfaith has thrown in the towel, claiming Rotorua is preferable to Tauranga. Fact is mary most of the attractions you mention came about because smart people saw an opportunity to make money. They won’t invest until the one common denominator exists, PEOPLE. The more that come, the more we get. More investment more taxation more development for future generations. The bonus in a museum is more education for those future generations, who have the power to make your life bliss or hell, your choice. Robin Bell.

Empirical polling results

Posted on 02-08-2017 14:59 | By Papamoaner

The only official ratepayer’s poll we can find with tangible results, was executed by TCC in 2015 and published in Sunlive at the time. (do your own homework). 49% for a museum, 31% against, 20% undecided. Apportioned undecideds relates to 59% for a museum, 41% against.There have been claims of other polls, but on investigation appear to have been fabricated, so therefore just plain old fashioned bullshit (excuse expletive).

Lack of honesty is unhelpful.

Posted on 02-08-2017 14:02 | By Papamoaner

I see there’s one clown on this thread that simply cuts and pastes old posts from another museum thread. Others claim to know the majority sentiment, but never include source reference. One even says he was kicked out of a pro-museum gathering, but he’s the only one claiming it. Funny that! Imaging footage could be interesting - always two sides to every story. Best outcome might be a general citizen’s referendum of all residents, then get on with it. This was supposed to be a media release about selecting the museum venue, but we all on both sides hijacked it into a for/against debate. Such is the intensity of passion for it, and resentment against it, with motives that are worlds apart, a bit like comparing wide vision with glaucoma. Let’s keep it rolling folks - I feel a museum coming o

Tauranga or Rotorua ?

Posted on 02-08-2017 13:55 | By Maryfaith

Tauranga /Mount offers tourists - Ocean Beach, shopping, Hot Pools, Fishing. ....COMPARED to the delights of Rotorua - consider ....luge, gondola, mudpools and geysers, Rainbow Springs, Bungee, Lion Park, Wingspan, Blue Baths, Ohinemutu, Lake and surrounds, Government Gardens, Waiotapu Springs, Lake cruises, Hells Gate, Parasailing, Mt Tarawera, Buried Village, Off Road Monsters, Native Forest Canopy Tour, Jet boats, White water rafting, Zorbing, Tamaki Maori Village., Agrodome, Musem (when reopened) ,,,, and so the list goes on .... ....IF YOU WERE A TOURIST, WOULD YOU OPT FOR A DAY IN TAURANGA OR ROTORUA? Would a museum tempt you to spend your day in Tauranga ???


Posted on 02-08-2017 11:44 | By Papamoaner

This might help answer your question;- I’m told that TePapa museum in Wellington is pretty much continuously overcrowded.

Verification is required waiknot,

Posted on 02-08-2017 11:35 | By R. Bell

can you really imagine a sitting councilor telling a ratepayer he’s not welcome to give an opinion? CC8 never gives proof of anything. Make it up and mould it is what its all about, ironic that that is what he accuses TCC of, don’t you think? Robin Bell.

@ papa - about Raewyn

Posted on 02-08-2017 11:20 | By MISS ADVENTURE

Yes, she is right, most Muesums are more or less the same theme, same type of stuff and the only real variation is the content on display. Tapapa has the displays that typify the standard when huge monies are spent/wasted on large scale displays. The cost to Wellington ratepayers is massive and mega millions a year. Tauranga wont achieve anything near that and so the losses will be bigger proportionally.

@ Pappa - denial obstructs getting to the truth

Posted on 02-08-2017 11:15 | By MISS ADVENTURE

You have not been able to publish this, the likely reason is that this fails to align with your desired outcome. you instead desperately hold on to that desired rather than teh truth of it.In February 2016, Sunlive ran an online poll, as at 28 February 2016 - near the end of it the poll showed 36% wanted a museum and 64% did not. The vote is clear on a 2:1 basis against. That is in fact the best poll I have seen before or since in suppor of a Museum, nothing else comes close to being this good i.e. in line with and favouring your desired result. Then again m=perhaps you are accustomed to teh minority (sepratism) applying despite the majority’s wishes.

@ pappa

Posted on 02-08-2017 11:13 | By MISS ADVENTURE

Looks like you have shifted locations, same story still though.


Posted on 02-08-2017 10:12 | By Papamoaner

I think you spoke for all those posters who don’t actually know what a museum is when you said "Most Museums have very similar displays" That is a common misconception from people who don’t move around much or can’t afford to travel, so haven’t actually seen any modern interactive museums eg;- "The Airforce Museum Of New Zealand" one example only. Modern interactive museums quite effectively double as educational centres. Or would you prefer the kids to hang around sniffing glue and doing grafitti? To me, Grafitti is the saddest thing. Those kids are widely regarded as "Losers" by the kinds of people we see on this thread, when in fact they are calling out for help, and many of them are very talented, just waiting for a mentor or a shove in the right direction. Ancient grafitti is today’s precious art.


Posted on 02-08-2017 09:09 | By thebrad

Simon Bridges should mind his dam business unless the government pays for it. Maybe take some money from the tolls roads in TGA and add to the fund. What a joke!


Posted on 02-08-2017 09:01 | By waiknot

Thank you for enlightening us about your experience. As I’ve said before ask the right question you will get the answer you want. Larry put an open invitation out to the pro museum people, and trashed the others.

Fence sitting M.Ps apart,

Posted on 02-08-2017 08:54 | By R. Bell

all socially orientated development attracts the usual doom and gloom, from the usual narrow minded minority. Money is all they think of. We need a Library, Museum complex, they are part of inner city attraction, the payoff is visitor interest in Tauranga. Right now we have virtually nothing to offer. Like it or not, proud of our history, or not, this city needs more than roadzzzzzzzzz to attract visitors and locals alike. Robin Bell.

dishonest money wasters

Posted on 02-08-2017 08:41 | By Captain Sensible

i really think "NONE OF THE ABOVE" should be an option on the next council ballot voting paper.

Hell bent

Posted on 02-08-2017 08:11 | By hapukafin

I understand there was once a survey taken and most of Taurangas rate payers didnt want a museum.Now the MP, some councillors,and others are wanting to build it to add to the over 600 museums that are in the country.What different items do we have that is not already displayed around the country?If this goes ahead and is not financially successful those who want it should be made liable to support it not the rate payers


Posted on 01-08-2017 18:59 | By Tgaboy

I can’t stomach the idea of Tauranga having a museum. I grew up with historic village and watched that die a death because no one went. Why are we doing this again at the cost of the rate payer?


Posted on 01-08-2017 16:29 | By astex

Only one MP seems to be looking at this rationally as per existing needs of the city. I think most of us would "like" a museum but realise that there are other, more important, things to do first. Well done Clayton, you just confirmed for me where my vote will go.

@17th Ave

Posted on 01-08-2017 15:11 | By Colleen Spiro

Put it where it the Historic Village.

New Library ?

Posted on 01-08-2017 14:40 | By PaulM

Cannot see that actual ratepayers, under any disguised name, should be saddled by this museum.Who is going to pay for this white elephant - let the Maori do their own museum if they want.Without bus loads of school children going to the Art Gallery, along with unacceptable subsidy, it would collapse just for the whim of a few.

Muse who?

Posted on 01-08-2017 14:37 | By Raewyn

I am sure if you asked every ratepayer in Tauranga if they think a Museum is a good investment for Tauranga the majority would say no! If there is to be a Museum it should be in 17th ave alongside the village! This is an asset to our City holding Historic to Tauranga Buildings. Most Museums have very similar displays and can be seen in numerous towns and Cities throughout New Zealand!

It's a lie

Posted on 01-08-2017 14:20 | By CC8

TCC will tell you they consulted with the public but that is a lie. They DID NOT involve the entire public, they invited people who WANTED a museum to come to their open days and see what was on offer , they quickly disposed of and sent anyone with a negative view packing. Believe me I was one of them and I was told I was NOT invited or welcome. Larry Baldock invited "Fans of a Tauranga Museum then said that 100% of people who turned up were in favour! That is blatant manipulation of facts and statistics...Even when he says they have the support of 1000, and sometimes 3000 ratepayers .. that is hardly an overwhelming positive , not really representative ofthe population of Tauranga is it?

Very exciting

Posted on 01-08-2017 13:51 | By Papamoaner

We all have a different take on what a modern museum should contain. My own passion is electricity, magnetism and geomagnetism for kids. There is too much emphasis on digital "plug and play" these days with kids growing up knowing how to do clever tricks with computers and keyboards, but not having a clue about how the physics actually works. For example, how many kids know that the earth has magnetic poles that reverse every eleven thousand years? We can teach them all this stuff in a museum with interactive models and displays and provide fun for them at the same time. But first we have to overcome adult ignorance that tries to tell us museums are only musty old places where artefacts are stored. BRING IT ON - sooner rather than later. Thanks TCC and Sunlive for keeping this alive.


Posted on 01-08-2017 13:42 | By maildrop

When will people understand that although they may be excited about their story, will paying tourists be willing to pay to hear about it? Are tourists, Kiwis and foreigners, coming to Tauranga to learn about Moari wars and the like? I doubt it. As for consulting the public - the silent majority don’t want it but they can’t be bothered to voice it. Yes, their fault and all that but it’s a fact of life. So I guess we will end up with a white elephant that a few loonies stamped their feet for.

Money Simon !!

Posted on 01-08-2017 13:38 | By Maryfaith

Simon asks - quote Cliff Rd would be a more ambitious and exciting museum, so what’s wrong with ambition and excitement when planning a significant new facility for the city?" Is he so thick (YES) that he can’t see that the city is practically bankrupt?There is a perfectly good building just waiting for a new tenant - perfect for this museum that the vast majority of ratepayers are so much against? This whole museum business is one huge scam foisted on the ratepayers by our incompetent council. Almost criminal in its stupidity.The motley museum crew would have us cover with concrete, just about the last green space available in the city and build yet another white elephant in it’s place. Poor Tauranga.

Museum Madness

Posted on 01-08-2017 13:35 | By Bazza 78

It may the concensus among members of MPs, but not with the great unwashed that will have to financially prop it up year after year with their rates.

Boring and boring

Posted on 01-08-2017 13:25 | By peecee09

Hey let’s talk some more and investigate some more and even employ some experts to investigate it some more bla bla bla, and soon another year will pass and we will still be the laughing stock of NZ.Councillors need to travel to Raglan " population 4000 approx" , have a look at their fantastic museum and then hang your heads in shame. What a joke.


Posted on 01-08-2017 13:18 | By dumbkof2

how many more times do we have to tell them we dont need it we dont want it we just cant afford it.about time it was buried once and for all. dont see those wanting it rushing forward saying they will pay for it

Does enthusiasm equal funding ??

Posted on 01-08-2017 13:17 | By mutley

Great for the MP’s and wannabes to want a Museum but who will actually pay ? How many more struggling museums does one little country need ? If the MPs are so keen then let them first find the funding stream from Central Government rather than stitching the rest of us into a long term debt commitment from which they can walk away.